If you face an image before a mirror, you never doubt that it is just a reflection. You do not believe that someone is inside that mirror looking at you. It is very clear it is just a reflection, an image, and that this is not you. However, the mind there, inside, sees everything differently.
So, what are we investigating here? We are only becoming aware that an image is just a reflection. It does not represent Reality. This is not a course in which you deepen your knowledge. This work is not for growth, in this sense. This is because Being does not deepen, Consciousness does not deepen. When we talk about Consciousness and Being, we are talking about Something out of time, of the known, which is beyond the boundary of the mind.
You cannot imagine a rose or an orchid going deeper in its expression, that is, becoming more than it already is in its manifestation as a flower. There it is the flower: plain, beautiful, natural… It cannot be more beautiful, complex, or unnatural than it already is. Your Divine Nature, your Essential Nature, bears the mark of Eternity, of Timelessness, of the Unknown. You, in your Being, are already that Consciousness and are beyond time.
You listen to these words, you may even ask if they are true, but it is not about being true or false. Nothing is true or false. Thus, I ask the question and give you the answer: no word is true. It is not about true or false here, because when we deal with words, we deal with an indication; it is an arrow in the middle of the road.
It is just like when you are driving your car and when you get to a crossroads, you are happy to find an arrow indicating to the right or left. So, the words here work like that arrow at the crossroads. They are neither true nor false. They are just indications. You will have to find out if they say something to you or not. This step towards this dimension of Truth, of Wisdom, is a step towards uncertainty. This carries great beauty because you need confidence, surrender, you need what is called “faith” until you know It by yourself. In fact, this Knowledge is about entering the Unknown, which is Not- Knowing.
Is it all right? Shall we continue or stop as an introduction? In fact, all of our talks are like this. They never say anything. There is always an open chapter. This here is a soap opera that never ends. You are faced with this arrow at the crossroads that says: “Everything is an illusion.” Then, to understand the illusion, a bit more of illusion is needed.
Participant: Here the arrow says “go back.” It is neither to the right nor to the left.
Marcos Gualberto: This work is surprising! How fascinating Truth is! The closer you come, the more you realize that there is no distance, so you never know if This is near or still far.
Participant: The sensation is that it is far.
Master Gualberto: The mind says that it is far. So, I come and show you this arrow, this indication, and it says: “Everything is an illusion!” To understand this illusion, a bit more of illusion is needed. You may ask: “After all, what are you saying? What is that you have just said?” You think you can get here and have the Truth. You cannot! You can get here and have a bit more illusion, which will be placed on the table to be served. A bit more of illusion is needed for you to leave illusion. You may not really believe in it, but you should believe that I am telling the Truth. However, if something is said, it is not the Truth. If something can be expressed, it is something within time, within the known.
So, the purpose here is not to find the Truth in these words. The purpose of this meeting is the verification of the Nature of the Truth, which is the Unknown. Thus, It is not in time. It is not in words. I am sorry… That is why my emphasis is on Meditation and not on study. I could ask you to study Vedanta, the Upanishads (holy books from India), the Bible, the Greek philosophers, the Course in Miracles, or some other book, another scripture, but the Truth is not there. It is not in the word. It is not in what is said.
So, when I say here is a meeting that to see the illusion you need a bit more of illusion, I am saying that these words or this meeting with the teacher, which we call Guru or Master, is something that also occurs within this illusion. This is like an encounter in a dream, in which a person communicates many things to you. Then, you wake up and find out everything the person said was related to the dream. It was applied only for the dream. That is, the person was in the dream saying things about the dream. We are doing something like this here.
Participant: What you are saying communicates something and gives a stop in everything.
Marcos Gualberto: Your observation is interesting. It is not what is said but from where this talk, this communication comes. Here are the beauty and the importance of this space called Satsang, which is the encounter with Consciousness in the form of the teacher, the Master. This is Something out of the mind being addressed through the mind’s language. The talk is within the mind and Reality is beyond it. So, to find the Master is to accept the teaching within the "dream." This is still within illusion, but there is an encounter. That is why I said that in order to understand That which is outside illusion, a bit more of illusion is needed, so that you can apply it to yourself, investigate this matter of “knowledge” and, after that phase, go beyond this illusion.
So, words never translate anything essentially true, but they are a way for you, as an aspirant to Self-Realization, to investigate within yourself what is said and go beyond that. Are they useful? Yes, they are. Even if they are within illusion? Yes. However, they are still within illusion, I know, that is why, ultimately, they are not true. Yet, if you welcome this, if there is this trust and acceptance of this “teaching” of the Guru, of the Master, because of faith and trust, a real Work can happen. Do you understand this?
So, although we are not dealing with the Truth through words, this Self-Realization takes place, and from that moment, the teachings of the Guru, of the Master, are no longer needed. That is because now you know that none of these teachings were true, but you needed the “canoe” to cross the “lake.” After crossing the lake, you do not take the canoe on your back and leave the lake with it, because you have already crossed the lake. Do you understand this? This “lake of illusion” requires “the canoe of illusion.” Once you are on the other bank, you realize there is no lake. Therefore, there is no bank on this or that side and there is no canoe.
This is the beauty of the Presence of the Guru, of the Master. Only the Master can show you the Truth that the Master is not real, that any conclusion about this is false, for it is still based on the mind. Some live in this debate: “Is the Presence of the Guru needed or not? Is it Real or not?” I agree with them when they say it is not needed, but in my view, it is not needed only when there is no more illusion. As long as illusion is present, all special form of illusion is needed. There are “illusions” and illusions: special or specialized illusions (let us say this way) and non-specialized illusions.
Non-specialized illusions are the illusions of the worldly life. The specialized illusion is that of the inclination of the devotee’s heart towards the encounter with the Divine. It is still an illusion, but an illusion that only the Divine Grace can reveal it as such. Before that, any conclusion is mere intellectual speculation and, therefore, egoic. Then, in this sense, I agree with the ones who say that the Guru is needed, as Ramana used to say. “The Guru will always be needed,” Ramana said.
Here you need to stand before the revelation of the Sage, of Consciousness, of Presence, of What is out of the psychological time, out of the psychological mind, of this ego-identity. The Guru is this Consciousness expressing Itself in a visible, audible way, within this “dream” of the world, in which you believe to live as a person. It all ends when illusion ends. When you get to the other bank, you find out that there is no lake, no bank, no canoe, no teaching, no Guru! Everything was just a dream and it has ended!
So, what are we investigating here? We are only becoming aware that an image is just a reflection. It does not represent Reality. This is not a course in which you deepen your knowledge. This work is not for growth, in this sense. This is because Being does not deepen, Consciousness does not deepen. When we talk about Consciousness and Being, we are talking about Something out of time, of the known, which is beyond the boundary of the mind.
You cannot imagine a rose or an orchid going deeper in its expression, that is, becoming more than it already is in its manifestation as a flower. There it is the flower: plain, beautiful, natural… It cannot be more beautiful, complex, or unnatural than it already is. Your Divine Nature, your Essential Nature, bears the mark of Eternity, of Timelessness, of the Unknown. You, in your Being, are already that Consciousness and are beyond time.
You listen to these words, you may even ask if they are true, but it is not about being true or false. Nothing is true or false. Thus, I ask the question and give you the answer: no word is true. It is not about true or false here, because when we deal with words, we deal with an indication; it is an arrow in the middle of the road.
It is just like when you are driving your car and when you get to a crossroads, you are happy to find an arrow indicating to the right or left. So, the words here work like that arrow at the crossroads. They are neither true nor false. They are just indications. You will have to find out if they say something to you or not. This step towards this dimension of Truth, of Wisdom, is a step towards uncertainty. This carries great beauty because you need confidence, surrender, you need what is called “faith” until you know It by yourself. In fact, this Knowledge is about entering the Unknown, which is Not- Knowing.
Is it all right? Shall we continue or stop as an introduction? In fact, all of our talks are like this. They never say anything. There is always an open chapter. This here is a soap opera that never ends. You are faced with this arrow at the crossroads that says: “Everything is an illusion.” Then, to understand the illusion, a bit more of illusion is needed.
Participant: Here the arrow says “go back.” It is neither to the right nor to the left.
Marcos Gualberto: This work is surprising! How fascinating Truth is! The closer you come, the more you realize that there is no distance, so you never know if This is near or still far.
Participant: The sensation is that it is far.
Master Gualberto: The mind says that it is far. So, I come and show you this arrow, this indication, and it says: “Everything is an illusion!” To understand this illusion, a bit more of illusion is needed. You may ask: “After all, what are you saying? What is that you have just said?” You think you can get here and have the Truth. You cannot! You can get here and have a bit more illusion, which will be placed on the table to be served. A bit more of illusion is needed for you to leave illusion. You may not really believe in it, but you should believe that I am telling the Truth. However, if something is said, it is not the Truth. If something can be expressed, it is something within time, within the known.
So, the purpose here is not to find the Truth in these words. The purpose of this meeting is the verification of the Nature of the Truth, which is the Unknown. Thus, It is not in time. It is not in words. I am sorry… That is why my emphasis is on Meditation and not on study. I could ask you to study Vedanta, the Upanishads (holy books from India), the Bible, the Greek philosophers, the Course in Miracles, or some other book, another scripture, but the Truth is not there. It is not in the word. It is not in what is said.
So, when I say here is a meeting that to see the illusion you need a bit more of illusion, I am saying that these words or this meeting with the teacher, which we call Guru or Master, is something that also occurs within this illusion. This is like an encounter in a dream, in which a person communicates many things to you. Then, you wake up and find out everything the person said was related to the dream. It was applied only for the dream. That is, the person was in the dream saying things about the dream. We are doing something like this here.
Participant: What you are saying communicates something and gives a stop in everything.
Marcos Gualberto: Your observation is interesting. It is not what is said but from where this talk, this communication comes. Here are the beauty and the importance of this space called Satsang, which is the encounter with Consciousness in the form of the teacher, the Master. This is Something out of the mind being addressed through the mind’s language. The talk is within the mind and Reality is beyond it. So, to find the Master is to accept the teaching within the "dream." This is still within illusion, but there is an encounter. That is why I said that in order to understand That which is outside illusion, a bit more of illusion is needed, so that you can apply it to yourself, investigate this matter of “knowledge” and, after that phase, go beyond this illusion.
So, words never translate anything essentially true, but they are a way for you, as an aspirant to Self-Realization, to investigate within yourself what is said and go beyond that. Are they useful? Yes, they are. Even if they are within illusion? Yes. However, they are still within illusion, I know, that is why, ultimately, they are not true. Yet, if you welcome this, if there is this trust and acceptance of this “teaching” of the Guru, of the Master, because of faith and trust, a real Work can happen. Do you understand this?
So, although we are not dealing with the Truth through words, this Self-Realization takes place, and from that moment, the teachings of the Guru, of the Master, are no longer needed. That is because now you know that none of these teachings were true, but you needed the “canoe” to cross the “lake.” After crossing the lake, you do not take the canoe on your back and leave the lake with it, because you have already crossed the lake. Do you understand this? This “lake of illusion” requires “the canoe of illusion.” Once you are on the other bank, you realize there is no lake. Therefore, there is no bank on this or that side and there is no canoe.
This is the beauty of the Presence of the Guru, of the Master. Only the Master can show you the Truth that the Master is not real, that any conclusion about this is false, for it is still based on the mind. Some live in this debate: “Is the Presence of the Guru needed or not? Is it Real or not?” I agree with them when they say it is not needed, but in my view, it is not needed only when there is no more illusion. As long as illusion is present, all special form of illusion is needed. There are “illusions” and illusions: special or specialized illusions (let us say this way) and non-specialized illusions.
Non-specialized illusions are the illusions of the worldly life. The specialized illusion is that of the inclination of the devotee’s heart towards the encounter with the Divine. It is still an illusion, but an illusion that only the Divine Grace can reveal it as such. Before that, any conclusion is mere intellectual speculation and, therefore, egoic. Then, in this sense, I agree with the ones who say that the Guru is needed, as Ramana used to say. “The Guru will always be needed,” Ramana said.
Here you need to stand before the revelation of the Sage, of Consciousness, of Presence, of What is out of the psychological time, out of the psychological mind, of this ego-identity. The Guru is this Consciousness expressing Itself in a visible, audible way, within this “dream” of the world, in which you believe to live as a person. It all ends when illusion ends. When you get to the other bank, you find out that there is no lake, no bank, no canoe, no teaching, no Guru! Everything was just a dream and it has ended!
*Online meeting transcription, originally held on May 11th, 2020 - First published in Portuguese on July 6th, 202018. For further information about our meetings, click here.
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