GC: Hello everyone! We are here for another videocast. Once again, gratitude, Master Gualberto, for being here with us to share what the experience of this Natural State is like and answer questions people ask here in the comments. Thank you very much, Master!
Master, I want to read a little excerpt from Joel Goldsmith’s book called “Our Spiritual Resources.” In this section of the book, Joel says the following: “As long as there is some concept in our mind about God, it is finite, limited and circumscribed, and therefore cannot be God himself.” Master, how to go beyond concepts about God?
MG: Any form of concept... The problem is that with a concept you are faced with an idea, with a belief, with a suggestion of thought. So, concept is not the reality, concept is not the thing itself. We have said this many times to those of you who approach. Every idea you have doesn't deal with reality; it deals with a concept. The idea is basically a concept. The word “chair” is not that utensil you have around the dinner table. You can sit on that object, but the name of the object is “chair,” and that expression “chair,” which is the name of the object, is the concept. The word “God” is not God, it is a concept, it is an idea.
The problem, Gilson, is that we take the concept, the idea and turn the concept and idea into a belief. A belief carries in itself a background, not only of a thought about the object, but of emotion and, also, sensation about the object. So, when you believe in God, you are having a belief, which is just a concept, an idea with a background of feeling and emotion. If you were brought up, born in a communist country, where you are not taught about God, you would not have this concept of God, as there they do not have the concept of God and do not have any feeling or emotion towards this word. If you use that expression for someone brought up in a culture where the Reality of God is not taught... there the word “God” is just an idea, it’s just a thought, which doesn't make the slightest sense to them, because there is no feeling and emotion involved in that word. Here for us it is, so we have to approach it, as I have said many times, very calmly.
The Divine Reality, the Reality of Being, the Reality of God, That which I have called the “Unnamable.” And I prefer to call it that rather than “God,” because what we call “God,” everyone has his own! And it’s just a very personal concept, of feeling, emotion and sensation. So much so that people use the expression “my God” in a very particular way. It’s a very personal experience, this God-to-me thing, and it’s personal because it’s based on a belief, a feeling, an emotion, and a sensation relative to an image that you have, that you've created.
So, as long as there is... this is what he is saying: as long as there is any concept, any idea, there will not be this Reality of God, because the Reality of God is outside the mind, it is outside the idea, it is outside the concept, it is outside belief, it is outside feeling, emotion, and sensation. So, the reality of that piece of furniture you sit on, which is the chair, is not the word “chair.” The reality of God is not the idea, the concept, the belief that is made of God. Even because [He] is very, I repeat, very particular and personal, each one has his own, each one has his own image of God, of Jesus, and it’s just an image that thought produced based on conditioning, learning, in a teaching, within a culture where one believes in God. So, “let’s believe together too!”
Here, what we are approaching is the verification of the Truth of what God is, and not the idea, the belief, the concept. This is not real! An important point, Gilson, is the following: this is not an experience. It cannot be an experience. You see, the word experience means something you went through. You can only tell me about an experience you've had. If you've already had it and have it in memory, in remembrance, it’s not reality anymore, it’s just another idea, it’s just another image that moves in your brain like a memory.
So, the Truth of God cannot be an experience. The Reality of God is actually the end of experience, because it is the end of the experiencer. Because who is this that can experience and then remember? It is the “I,” the ego. So, again, this is not a concept, a memory, a word, an image, a belief. Contact with the Reality of God is the end of the “I.” That’s it!
GC: I would like Master to talk a little more about this issue of sensation, of feeling, because, within these concepts about God, within my experience, the studies I went through, many years on a spiritual journey, there are concepts, and much is said about something mental, hence when there is a feeling or a sensation it is something more real. And it’s very interesting how the Master puts it: that it’s the same thing! The sensation, feeling, thought, is all someone’s illusion! Can you talk a little more about it?
MG: That sensation, that feeling and that emotion: who does it happen to? That’s the question. The answer is very simple: “For me.” And what is present in that “me” now, in terms of a sensation, an emotion, a thought? Only that which is no longer, that which is not there. All you have of an emotion, a feeling, a thought, is something linked to the sense of someone present within that experience. What is the reality of this someone? A fraud, because the “I” is an illusion and what it experiences is part of what it embodies within its illusion, so it cannot be real.
We have, Gilson, placed great value on experience, because we see ourselves as the experiencer. When we start working on the matter of the end of the experiencer, which is the end of the “I,” we stop valuing experiences, that’s when we can really have access to something outside the experiencer, something outside the experience itself. Reality is not in time, and experience and the experiencer are in time. So much is in time that it can be reported, it can be told, it can be described, it can be lived and then remembered. So, it is something that is still part of the known.
The Reality of God is not like that. The Reality of that Truth is something out of time. It’s something timeless. It is something that is outside the body, mind and world, and therefore something outside the known.
The beauty of direct contact with the Truth of That which is your Being is that there is no one left to say anything about It, because there is nothing to say; because there is no one left to say something about; because there is no “I”! So, the Divine Reality is not an experience, there is no an experiencer, nor something to know, nor someone to remember what happened.
That, Gilson, is the beauty of the Meditative approach. Notice the difference between approaching what is real, which is Meditation – Real Meditation is True Meditation – and this so-called “meditation practice.” For example, when we practice meditation, we are there. For a few moments, you may have a space outside of time, but this also happens in everyday life. And, within a practice, within a technique, or a system, you transform that moment of silence into a memory, into an experience, into a recollection. There is no more Truth in it, because you are back, still being the experiencer, still being the rememberer, the recollector, the describer... If you don't describe for others, you describe for yourself, which is the same thing, because it’s you separating yourself, being two: one that speaks and one that listens.
So, the principle of illusion is present as long as there is an experiencer having experiences. So, these so-called “spiritual,” “mystical” experiences are experiences still within that field, the field of duality, of separateness, and, therefore, there is only the “truth” of the illusion of the “I” in these experiences, and nothing else.
Here, in this work, we are interested in discovering That which is outside the known, outside time and therefore outside the experiencer and experience. And That, when present, leaves no record; It is real, the ego doesn't capture It to make It its own and then say “look, I lived it, I felt it, I experienced it!”, “I had an experience of Kundalini Awakening or Enlightenment, or of Awakening of Consciousness,” “when my Kundalini awakened...” None of these proceeds within that real contact with the end of the “I,” which is the Real Presence in Consciousness, which is pure Meditation, which is You in your Being, outside of that “me,” of this “I.”
GC: Master, within this theme, we have a question from Marcos Hiar. He asks: “Master, I've been several times with a free mind, but then it wants to understand and force this process, and I realized that I only get there with a calm mind. And when it pushes, my mind is agitated, like in a tug of war. How to proceed to return to the center?” That’s his question, Master.
MG: So, we've just answered his question, haven't we? Someone’s idea of getting there... See, the idea of getting there... For you to get there, you have to know the address, and the address you now have, after that experience, is just a memory of a silence that you had. “You” who? Who lived this silence? It is exactly that “someone” who is reporting the presence of that silence somewhere, which he now has to reach again, has to get there again. So, see: this is a great fallacy, this is a great illusion, still, of the mind itself.
What has happened, Gilson, in general, with people, is that they have a moment of silence, which is really a moment of stillness, but it is still a stillness that I have called unnatural, because it is through a technique, a practice. So, you reach a certain silence of the mind, a certain stillness, and then you stay with the address of that silence, with the address of that stillness, and then with the purpose of coming back to that silence, this stillness. So, what do we have inside this game? Still a movement within the known, within the limitation of the own “I,” the own egoic identity.
What has happened, Gilson, is that, in these different so-called “meditation practices,” the meditator just keeps quiet, he is forced into silence, he is forced into stillness; the brain settles down, the mind goes silent, the sense of “I” is there without doing any mischief. But when meditation is over, he himself says: “It’s time to go back,” and he comes back with all that record of well-being, silence, stillness, peace that he lived, and he comes back with that address, wanting to return to that place again, and that place he calls “the center.” “How to get to this center?” We have to rule it all out!
When there is True Meditation, there is no experiencer, so there is no experience. If the experience is not there, because there is no experiencer, there is no record. The beauty of this encounter with what I have been calling the True Meditation is that when there is True Meditation there is no “you.” When there is Meditation, the sense of the meditator disappears. But it doesn't disappear to come back again, it really disappears! So, it is not recorded, because it is not valued, it is not being temporarily sidelined through a technique or practice.
I have explained this in videos and in face-to-face meetings as well, in a much more direct way. We must have a very real approach to ourselves in these matters, or else, Gilson, we fall into a trap. That sense of “I” has been running the game for millennia. So, it has a way to hide itself, has a way to hide, has a way to preserve itself, and that’s what it’s been doing! So, if you follow a simple religious life of practice, following and only reading, studying books, and practicing different meditation techniques, and going from one practice to another, you may simply be fooled by the ego, and you may spend a lot of time [like this], maybe a lifetime!
We are dealing with the illusion of a sense of identity that, despite being illusory, is very real for its purposes. It’s been around for millennia and it knows how to hide. So, it hides itself through religious words, through religious practices, through mystical practices, through book readings, through studies, through experiences, especially those experiences that take you away from this boredom, this tedious thing, which is living in this stress of the ego. Then, you have a few moments and you are delighted, because that practice gave you something. In fact, it relieved stress, relaxation, you had an experience. And when you have some visions? And when do you really notice something that you believe is outside the ego and is really just another mystical experience? So that’s the point! This is the point! We have to be careful with this... We have to be careful with this.
GC: Master, but it’s very easy for the ego to get carried away with these experiences. I remember that, when I approached this work with you Master, I was experiencing something very close to what Marcos commented on in this question. I had some experiences where I felt a stillness, a peace, and then all the affliction and this duality of being someone came back, and soon I had an experience... But the detail is that the ego was there in that experience, recording it, being in it and liking it, and wanting to hold on to that experience.
And, as the Satsangs go by, these encounters with the Master, in that proximity, the Master sweeps away this experience, this grasping, living an experience and grasping: “It is my experience.” Because this decoy ego gives is a trap, it’s amazing how it takes possession of the experience. It registers the memory and it’s a nice memory, a pleasure, a relaxation... then it wants to go back to that experience. And with the Master, in this approach, I see that, when there is a state of True Meditation in Satsang, which I receive from the Master, it is something I have nothing to talk about later, you know? I don't know, I just know that the retreats ... the retreat at the end of the year, Master, which lasted seven days... When the retreat started, the retreat ended shortly after, and then there’s not much to talk about, because it passed, you see?
So, it’s really funny how the ego can't take hold of experiences and be present. It’s out of time, it’s grace!
MG: The point, Gilson, is that when we deal with the absence of the “I,” which is the absence of the ego, we are dealing with something that doesn't register. The ego is the recorder. The ego is the one who experiences, keeps, and cultivates. Our life, daily living linked to the sense of a present “I” – which is the life of human beings – is so stressful, boring, tedious and so painful that anything we have, that we receive, to temporarily escape a pain, a suffering, we soon register it to look for it again.
Humans have a very addictive behavior to flee pain for pleasure. And, when you have this religious inclination, you don't run away to drugs, you don't run away to alcohol, you don't run away to the betrayal of your partner, your wife, your husband. You, when you have a religious bent, you run away to God, but it’s still an escape. These readings that we never stop reading, it brings an emotion, a feeling. These different practices of prayers, of meditation, it gives you a breath, it adds something that, in truth, is wonderful; it’s not the drugs, it’s not the world, it’s not the addictions, it’s something that gives you the impression inside you that you're on the way. Even because books help you believe that you are on the path.
The experiences are beautiful, they are wonderful, but Gilson – have patience in listening to me – they are still experiences of an experiencer and, therefore, still function as temporary escape mechanisms from the affliction that is living entirely in the ego. This is not an approach of Self-awareness; it is not an approach of Meditation in a real way.
We've done this with our lives. People spend many years, a lifetime, in a religious life, experiencing wonderful, very pleasant moments, but they still remain within that sense of separation: there is God and them. And, to live that moment they call “moment with God,” they need to be in that practice, or that reading, or that meditation, or that ritual. And this is not the end of the sense of ego, this is not yet the end of the illusion of this “I,” this “me,” this one who suffers.
What people are looking for, Gilson, is consolation, it’s comfort. Here, we are working with you on the end of the “I,” the end of illusion, something outside of everything that your mind can idealize, believe, think, or seek. The Reality of Truth about You is that You are Bliss, you are Love, you are Bliss, you are Joy, you are Peace! But not the peace that we know in the ego, not that so-called “religious peace,” not that so-called “religious happiness,” which is that happiness of the moment of prayer, the moment of worship, the moment of practice. When the time for practice, meditation, worship, adoration, or prayer is over, we are back to those internal states of jealousy, envy, fear, and boredom.
The Reality of That which You are is not an experience, and people can mistake these wonderful experiences for Reality. Reality is not an experience. It is something entirely indescribable, because it is outside the mind, outside the experiencer, outside language, outside the word, outside memory, it is outside the register. That’s it.
GC: Master, I remember that meditation, the practice of sitting and meditating, was a huge escape for me, because the moment I was in a stressful or challenging situation, I would run to my little room, cross my legs and stay there doing my meditation. It was so yummy! The ego loves this escape, because it detaches itself from the experience of pain or discomfort and runs, runs to a solution. And these practices, as the Master says, ease that pain. In reality, they don't solve anything, they just sweep it under the rug and keep that separation. Now, living, facing it – not facing it in the sense of “being present” –, it’s only with Grace, it’s something that the ego, by itself, doesn't have the strength to be in that Oneness. It is separation, it is this illusion, so it perpetuates itself. Now, with the Grace of Master, this falsehood is seen, it is seen, it is impossible not to see it when close to the Master!
MG: And look, Gilson, how subtle all this is: we haven't really broken with the ego-identity condition. Despite all these wonderful moments that we have in these experiences – which I have just stated are just moments of temporary escape from the ego –, we don’t break with jealousy, we don’t break with envy, we don’t break with fear, we don’t break with the conflict and contradictions that desire causes in us, we don't break with violence, we don't break with stress, we don't break with the ego. It is still alive, but we enter into an ideal: “Look, I haven't managed it yet, but one day I will. So, I will continue doing my practices, because with time I will succeed.” Here is an ego trap: we put the idea of time in order to accomplish It. “Tomorrow I'll succeed,” then you look at yourself...how many years have you been doing this practice? And then you look and it’s all still there; and then you say, “No, I need one more book to read, or a little more prayer, or a little more meditation, or more time in practice.” What is actually happening is that the sense of “I” is having its continuity unseen!
The work with Meditation, which is based on Self-awareness, is to become aware of what is happening here and now. If it’s envy, it’s envy; if it’s fear, it’s fear; jealousy, it is jealousy; anger, it is anger; desire, it is desire; conflict, it is conflict; boredom, it is boredom; anguish, it’s anguish. “What is going on here? Let me look at this. Let me become aware of this internal state without adding an identity to fight it, to try to get rid of it or do something about it. Let me observe this movement of the ‘I’, of the ‘me’.” To look at this is to approach in an experiential way what I have called Self-awareness. This gives you the basis for the Truth of Meditation, because Meditation is becoming aware of this entire movement of the “I” as it arises, here and now.
This is the moment! It is the moment when thought arises with images, feeling arises with sensations, sensations arise with feelings and thoughts... Becoming aware of yourself here and now: this is Self-awareness, this is self-observation and that is contact with True Meditation. Looking at it and not judging, not condemning, not rejecting, not identifying, not running away either, is getting closer to discarding this psychological conditioning, because it is being seen by this Intelligence, by this Consciousness. It is when you are really open to the Power of Grace, for the Power of Truth to work in that body-mind, destroying this conditioning, which is cerebral and is in the body as well, as conditioning.
This is contact with True Meditation, this is contact with the Truth of your Being. It’s not running away, continuing to study, studying, studying something out there. It’s studying yourself; it’s observing yourself; it’s becoming aware of yourself. We have a lot of theory, [we] read a lot, we studied a lot, so now it’s time to study yourself, observe your reactions, what goes on there, observe this background of conditioning, observe this whole process of the “I,” including this process of running away.
GC: Master, I repeat, I think that in almost every videocast I say: Master’s speeches are very revolutionary! Because, in the world, what is said is that the escape is exactly for drugs, or for food, or for drink, and then the Master says: “No, no! It’s not just that. Escape is for this whole feeling of separateness or this seeking to become.” So, the escape to seek God is a different quality of escape, but it’s still this “little me” in this falsehood of being somebody staying alive. It is very beautiful, because the ego does not see it. No way! The ego is polished, beautiful, because now it is seeking God, it is dedicating itself, it is reading. And it is empowered by this! But it is all very subtle, Master, that’s why I say: without the Grace of a living Master, how is the ego going to see this? It won't see it! It keeps camouflaging itself and perpetuating itself in this quest to become: “No, I need to practice more or I need to study more, I need to read this book more, or I need to read this same book fifty times. One day...” It’s a trickery, a naughty thing, which has no way for the ego to see itself. It perpetuates itself like that, doesn't it, Master?
MG: How many people say, Gilson: “It was the search that brought me here for a meeting like this.” And I say: “No, it wasn't the search, it was the tiredness! You are already tired.” The search has something wonderful about it: the search will make you tired. What brings you the Presence of Truth is the Truth itself, not the search. Your search is your search. There is a difference between you being in that search and Reality finding you. Reality finds you, but It doesn't find you because of your search. In fact, there is only God looking for Himself, and it is only Reality that finds you, and that’s when you are already tired of your search. Your search is confused, of readings, of studies, of leaving one religion for another, of one practice after another... until a moment arrives in which the Presence of Grace reveals itself, and when It reveals itself, the search ends.
It was like this in my meeting with my Master: when Grace revealed itself, the search ended. The quest ends! And then a real work begins to happen, and it’s real because there won't be anything else, there won't be any other means. Everything that used to be an escape will no longer exist. Everything will really be taken away. That’s when real work starts to happen, and the ego is naturally worried, resentful, but maturity is what will determine this Truth of Grace, in its power, in its wonderful and inexplicable kindness and compassion, to work. And it is That that realizes, that does, gives it to you, that makes absolutely everything! It is That that takes away, that gives, that does everything! It’s wonderful!
GC: Master, I remember a Satsang, the first time I heard you saying: “It wasn't your search that brought you here,” and then a whirlwind of thoughts came: “Wow, but I went through that study, I went through that other, I went through the other, another, another until I got here. Damn life!” And then it took a few Satsangs before the “penny dropped” … wow! I just got in the way! I did everything to get in the way, in the way, in the way of this Grace reaching my life. And it really arrived because I got tired, I got tired! Wow... study, study, meditate, meditate, meditate... When I couldn't take it anymore, I was exhausted from tiredness, Grace appeared.
MG: People get really mad at me when I say that.
GC: Yes, I know, Master.
MG: People get very upset, very upset.
GC: I was too.
MG: Because the ego believes that it is doing everything. Even in its search for God, it thinks it is the one going towards God. No, it’s not that.
GC: It does everything to get in the way of this happening, right, Master?
MG: Yes.
GC: Master, our time here is already over. So, gratitude, Master. Thanks for this Satsang. We invite those who did not have the opportunity to participate in the weekend intensive with Master. These videocasts are interesting, but it’s just a glimpse of this Real Investigation that he does in these intensives, both online and even more when it’s in person. So, if there’s something that burns or if you're already tired... right, Master? If you're tired, Grace presents itself, and then if the ego doesn't bring a lot of resistance and trickery to escape, come to Satsang and allow yourself to be torn apart by this Grace, because ego is going to die.
MG: There’s coming the retreat, right, Gilson?
GC: Yes, Master, now in July. Ten-day retreat... wow! It’s going to be a big intensive of self-investigation, so here’s the invitation. Here in the first comment, there’s the WhatsApp link. And leave a comment, leave a “like,” subscribe to the channel, because YouTube recognizes that the content is relevant and distribute it to more people. Master, gratitude, gratitude.
MG: Thanks guys, see you soon.
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